"Rich and nice"! 竟然連你也加入歌頌 Steve Jobs 的行列。//然後微軟改少少又出新版, 改少少又出新版. //- iPhone 和 iPad 何嘗不是如此？而且 Apple 的產品諸多限制，令你一入侯門深似海，付多不少的錢，也要繼續用它的產品。Steve Jobs 的最大成功處，是令很多人覺得用 Apple 的產品高人一等、與眾不同。
Nice??? 利用 sweatshops 賺錢嘅人係好 nice???
sweatshop 的問題，能夠全部算在 Jobs 的頭上嗎？
不能全部算上，但也有份吧負責，而且明明有用 sweatshops 又要否認，那都算是 nice???
Wong,Mac 的配件比PC 貴，這是事實。不過Mac比其他很多主流電腦生產商有遠見，卻是毋庸置疑的。用Mac 者是自覺高人一等還是別人真的覺得他們高人一等？我不知。我的ipad 用了兩年，今天你拿一部新的三叔Galaxy同我交換，我都無興趣。我的ipod也用了四年幾，從沒有強逼消費的感覺。
還不到一年前，你這樣說 iphone，想不到這麼快便成了蘋果教的信徒：「我一直不喜歡 iphone, 我不喜歡 iphone不是因為它有甚麼不好, 我是受不了街頭巷尾都有人拿著它, 而且通常都在玩白癡的推銀仔遊戲.我覺得如果我都忍受不住而下了海, 結果我會在地鐵火車上埋頭埋腦地推, 成為了庸俗世界的一部份.」（http://williamsin.blogspot.com/2010/11/blog-post.html）
我沒有iphone. 也未有買iphone 的打算。
I think this guy says it well:"Apple stuff is undoubtedly slick, curvy and tactile. Its programs perform user-friendly and irrefutably useful functions. No, what turns me off is the cult-like approach that Apple has to marketing and advertising. I'm offended by the self-important manner in which Apple has created a technological apartheid, mainly just by charging a lot more, but also by distancing itself from ordinary PCs - that's personal computers to the uninitiated." (Simon Mills, "Why I hate Apple, the infuriating cult making people smug bores")
我說 Jobs 是nice person. 我沒有說他是聖人。堂堂一間 Apple, 每年生產幾千萬件電子產品。你要Jobs 向全條生產線涉及的每一個員工的福利負責。你想他是超人麼？外判生產線的員工有問題，要說責任，爲甚麼不向富士康的管理層追究？或者中國政府的勞工部？是他們沒有相關的保障法例，還是他們沒有執法？sweatshop的問題，我沒有說Jobs完全沒有責任。不過，我當初只是說他是個 nice person, 我想這兩者沒有矛盾吧。
Talking about computers, the macs nowadays are much cheaper than before. But they do have better quality than Dells. If someone is offened by the tone of their advertisement, there is nothing I can do. But I can assure you that the ads of other producers are nothing but worse (see the case of 聯想）If the copycats or other producers fail to estalish a character for themselves, it is their own problem, not Apple's problem.
Here are some well-known facts about how "nice" a person Steve Jobs was: He parked his car in handicapped spaces knowingly, periodically reduced subordinates to tears, and fired employees in angry tantrums. He listed himself as "co-inventor" on 103 separate Apple patents, everything from the user interface for the iPod to the support system for the glass staircase used in Apple's dazzling retail stores.
＜蘋果教是怎樣煉成的＞ (The English original)
nice is a broad term and in willsin's post, i think he is only using it in a very limited sense, referring it to "給人一種 inspiration, 一種重生的感覺, 一種對生活的希望和活力" ...we can certainly argue if jobs is really bring us inspiration, 一種重生的感覺, 一種對生活的希望和活力, hence if he deserves willsin's crowning of him as being nice ... i am not sure if it is at all relevant to bring sweatshop into the discussion ... and those known "facts" that wong brought up ??? ... it only gives me the impression that it borderlines on wong's trying to 鞭 jobs' 屍 ...the only thing i guess i can almost certainly say is that wong is definitely not nice :-) ...
你這裏是個奇怪的地方，幾乎我每次留言都會給人人身攻擊！我只是說有人將 Steve Jobs 美化了，甚至神化了，竟然變了鞭他的屍。
cyc,//假如，我喜歡Coca-Cola而唔喜歡Pepsi，然後用willsin方式寫篇文話我覺得Coca-Cola嘅CEO好rich同nice。咁算唔算歌頌同美化佢？//- 說他 nice 已是歌頌，有沒有美化則看歌頌是否合理。
//我沒有iphone. 也未有買iphone 的打算。我阿媽生日，佢話要 iphone, 我周園問都冇貨。你冇買的打算也很精明。
wong,//你這裏是個奇怪的地方//strange fella comes to strange place ... this is not the first time you think you are being attacked ... you sure you don't have 妄想迫害症 ?be nice ...
wong是不是nice我不知，只知我同意他對這篇文的留言。"sweatshop的問題，我沒有說Jobs完全沒有責任。不過，我當初只是說他是個 nice person, 我想這兩者沒有矛盾吧。 "看來版主對nice字定義非常寬，我不會覺有份負sweatshops責任又死口否認用sweatshops的人會nice得去邊。
It is not easy to find electronics or other products for that matter that are free from the use of sweatshop labor. Foxconn doesn't manufacture only Apple products. A product can be "sweat-free" in one part of the process but if you look closely in the production chain, it might not be "sweat-free" after all. This is what capitalism is about. "Nice" and "bad" people alike participate in the exploitative system. Choosing one brand over another doesn't do much. Most of us won't change our consumption habits even when we are well aware of the labor abuse, discrimination, frauds, and other corporate abuses. Most of us are not "nice" that wya.I love Apple products; I am fascinated by Steve Jobs's life and admire his genius, I dig his philosophy of the relationship between technology and its users. I think his ideas and his products, manufactured and marketed through the exploitative capitalism system, have indeed changed many of our lives for the better. And he doesn't have to be a "nice" person to achieve that.
And we can recognize his achievements without engaging in hagiolatry.
//有些人是地產商, 有些人有良心, 但這並不代表這個世界有些地產商同時會是有良心的人。//這個說話有問題﹐且偏頗並帶有煽動性你只能說「但這既不代表這個世界有些地產商同時會是有良心﹐但也不排除這世界有些地產商同時會是有良心。」
Wong://And we can recognize his achievements without engaging in hagiolatry.//I hate the most the "chicken soup for the soul" type Facebook or blog entries about Jobs. It is interesting to see the people jumping on the Jobs worshipping bandwagon at the last minute. As a sociologist, I observe the reactions to Jobs' passing with great interests. I have started to think that the collective mourning has much to do with the global economic depression that we yearn for the era of optimism and creativity. It's nicer to remember a college dropout making it big than to face the reality of unemployed college grads saddled with huge student loans.We need something, someone, to worship.
//I hate the most the "chicken soup for the soul" type Facebook or blog entries about Jobs.//- Same here, lin.
Lin, Thanks very much for your insightful comments ...I am not a sociologist so I may not have the insightful eyes like yours to see the link between the collective mourning and global economic depression ... my 2-cents' worth of comment is that, I think, Jobs' followers think highly of him because of his inspiration, 一種生的感覺, 一種對生活的希望和活力, as willsin put succinctly ... I have seen the come-and-go of PC's and other mainframe and mid-range computers, the come-and-go of Windows, and the recent rise of Linux ... the rise and fall of these products does come close to Jobs' inspiration ...
sorry typo ... i meant to say ... the rise and fall of these products does not come close to Jobs' inspiration ...
1. 原來我是受到全球經濟衰退影響所以才會悼念 SteveJobs? 好野！我自己都唔知。2. 説某君是個 nice guy 原來那麼難！即使他推出的產品你十分喜歡，你都不可以說他是 nice guy!3. 單單因為這個世界有些歌頌 Jobs 的文字寫得佷cheap, 所以我們也要反對任何對 Jobs 的讚頌文章？好野，大家果然有獨立思考的能力。
1. Lin 的語調分明是 speculative 的，而且沒有說每一個悼念 Steve Jobs 的人都是如此。2. 他的產品 nice 和他是個 nice guy 當然是兩回事啦！3. 誰在這裏講過有這「因為... 所以... 」的關係？至少我沒有。
那我們對 nice 的理解有不同了.
Willsin://1. 原來我是受到全球經濟衰退影響所以才會悼念 SteveJobs? 好野！我自己都唔知。// I wasn't even thinking about you when I wrote about economic depression as one of the possible factors for the collective mourning. //2. 單單因為這個世界有些歌頌 Jobs 的文字寫得佷cheap, 所以我們也要反對任何對 Jobs 的讚頌文章？好野，大家果然有獨立思考的能力。// I don't know if you were referring to what I wrote there. But for me personally, I have read some great 讚頌文章 about Steve Jobs. And for sure, I wasn't in any way "against" your piece. I have been following the reactions to Jobs' passing closely on the news partly because I am a Mac faithful and Jobs admirer myself and partly because I have always been fascinated by the fervor among the Mac faithful. Well, I wasn't thinking of you piece either when I wrote about "the chicken soup for the soul" types of articles. I was mainly thinking of those "suddenly inspired" who did not know much about Jobs and the history of Apple. I wonder why all of a sudden Steve Jobs's life resonates so much with everybody and what perceptions these new admirers have of Jobs. On another note, it seems to me that the representation of Jobs before he came back to Apple in the late 1990s was very different from the representative of Jobs in the last few years.So, my original response was mostly to Wong. Sorry for hijacking your blog.
Lin, Thanks for your clarification.Cyc, The message has been resumed.
哈, 連陶才子都說 He's not a nice guy. Yan, 謝謝連結.willsin
I tried to share this but it didn't come through the first time:http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/epitaph-for-steve-jobs-too-great-to-be-good/2011/10/12/gIQADCIsfL_story.html
It is a very interesting article. Thanks for the link.I didn't realize that the setting of the Blogspot will block comments that contain html links until many of you told me so.I will look into the setting.
各位, 若你的留言包括某 plain text 網址的話, 可能會被過濾掉. (例如 lin 及 cyc 的連結.)我暫時都不知道怎樣修改這種設定. 若大家知道怎樣做的話, 請告訴我.若你的留言不幸被阻掉了, 亦請通知, 我會盡快找出來放回原處的.